Because of this, if I mortgage usdc to borrow ghst from aave and then produce fren through wapghst, I am taking a risk, but I am also offsetting the risk of falling ghst price, if everyone borrows the same way, they don’t need to hold ghst gets fren, from another point of view, they use usdc to get fren, more importantly, they reuse a pool, which will not lead to ghst increment
I’m not accusing this behavior, it’s just a common financial tool, the question I want to point out is whether fren will be inflationary because of it
Stretching my brain trying to think through this proposal:
The market currently values tickets based on raffle imminence and prizes offered. Number of tickets entered values the prizes as well. I like that in principle although interesting to read some of the vectors for abuse in this thread (i’m too naive) - but the main vector I’m hearing is based on raffles going ahead by vote, then large interested parties voting to cancel again, right? (see my question above) Using leverage to earn free frens (as I understand it) won’t be mitigated by moving to GLTR assuming the wapghst single pool will remain?
Under the new proposal having GLTR interchangeable with tickets (minus a 1-way penalty) the community will have to vote way in advance what the gltr value of a ticket is - which I don’t like in principle.
But then the market will value tickets by moving liquidity into and out of the LP pools (single or double) and value the prizes by the number of tickets entered into the raffle.
Won’t this pump and dump the value of GLTR, which is a full ERC-20, based on how fickle the community is in choosing when raffles are held or cancelled based on (from what I can tell) fear of inflation and market conditions. Is it right to tie these pump and dump mechanics to the value of the other uses for GLTR (why should speed building be more costly during a raffle for eg?)
Doesn’t this expose gltr and hence our other ecosystem tokens to more volatility based on how good or likely we think the next raffle is?
Is this a bad thing?
Why didn’t I do an economics degree?
(thanks for bearing with me)
ps
Didn’t realise you can edit ppls “quotes” - feels dangerous lol
The issue with the frens mechanic and ticket market, is the one way nature of this combined with the absolute dominance in VP of the people who are the source of tickets. This is a recipe for corruption at the very least, and it doesn’t take too many beers to get ones mind going down the path to “I just got played, again” when there is a mass dumping of tickets onto the market right before a prop to delay a raffle is made. It doesn’t matter if this is intentional or it is someone’s plan, it happens, and we don’t allow this in any other area of Aavegotchi.
We can’t even get people to try out using a whitelist, without people opposing it, saying they are being rugged and taken advantage of or treated unfairly somehow, but we have been running a system where the people with 90% of the VP are the same people with 90% of the control of the supply of an item, and when it becomes useful or not useful.
The raffles are not the problem, tickets are not the problem, the problem is the one way conversion and single use, makes it into a trap sometimes, and this feels very much like you just got played, when it happens.
We can get the same utility we were intending, with the tickets, from glitter, and Dan’s idea to make them exchangeable, is all that is needed as a safeguard against the fact that you can vote on what the ticket market is going to do.
Obviously, the day of a raffle, glitter will moon. That’s fine, and you could simply sell glitter on those days, as your whole hustle, if you like. That doesn’t happen in reverse, though… there is no reason to hold a pile of tickets a long time, and lock up liquidity that could have been in the market, making moves, being flipped, getting yields, if you can just turn your glitter into tickets at the last second.
What I see happening, should we do it that way, is on raffle days, the glitter LP will empty out to a point where the market will natural decide… is it worth it to pull more out for the raffle? That block reward is nuts right now…
The raffles will become the times when the staking market resets a bit and lots of liquidity goes from there, to the raffle, or from alchghst to gltrghst, and all sorts of fun market action will occur. Lots of hard choices, most of which actually sound like winners, from where I sit… enter raffle, get stuff… stay staked, get more rewards… save up GLTR to dump during raffle, more realized yields… raffle too full, sell glitter for ghst and buy the items off the high rollers who dump…
We don’t need to vote on what they are worth, really… all that matters is that when we do it, the ratio of frens to gltr is such that a smooth trade over can be offered. The value of a ticket is irrelevant after that, in that they say right on them, how many frens that is.
The way gltr is going right now… we are getting close to that moment, where 1 frens = 1 glitter. Maybe we should be monitoring this and use that moment to offer a 1 to 1 conversion? How many unallocated frens do we need to get rid of? Maybe the DAO could farm some GLTR to make a pool that can be used to buy out the frens of anyone who comes back later wondering what they can do with their frens? I personally am very much enjoying the yields I get from GLTR, but for the sake of the community, I would not be upset if the DAO lowered my blockrate for a bit because we were making a safety net for people who somehow missed the message that we changed over. If that’s not a good use of DAO alchemica… what is?
Ill put one up after work. If anyone throw ups some specific formula that makes sense, I’ll use that.
I’ll do up one to make the glitter side of staking count for VP as well. I could do it as one prop, but since we reference those props all the time in the voting system, those should be kept pure.
do we think it’s a good idea to mix GLTR (time) with Raffles? i would much rather alchemica be used to mint tickets than GLTR. since we mint everything we craft in the gotchiverse, why not keep minting tied to alchemica? i’m not ready to vote on this latest proposal without some further discussions on why we should use GLTR rather than alchemica.
we need to slow down the give-aways at this point. using GLTR just keeps people asking “wen raffle?” every other month. by forcing people to use alchemica to mint tickets, they can’t just LP and enter raffles. they would need to be more involved in the ecosystem. this has been a big complaint from many people over the last 1.5 years (stake GHST and walk away). i think we can raise the bar to entry for raffles by using alchemica.
I liked the idea of replacing frens with GLTR for a long time BUT now I realized that I liked the idea of replacing frens with at least something that would be better, but GLTR did not turn out to be the best in this case and now I like replacing frens with ALCH much more (thanks Kuwlness for it). We won’t be able to use GLTR for both - raffles and building speed, but ALCH can do that. Total supply of GLTR today is only 20kk GHST, and they will be mined during 30 years, the last 2 wearable raffles would burn GLTR for 3-4kk GHST - you understand what I’m getting at - in some time we cant burn GLTR for speed up upgrades because we will have not enough high prices of ALCH to burn so expensive GLTR and this trend will get worse every month. ACLH total supply now exceeds 2kkk GHSTs and this capitalization could easily absorb all the raffles over the next 30 years, but GLTR can’t do that while REMAINING USABLE AS A BUILDER ACCELERATOR! ALCH needs such a sink (raffles) much more than GLTR: raffles will support the price of ALCH well, and GLTR itself will follow it, because it will be profitable for people to burn GLTR for the sake of getting such valuable ALCH asap.
My personal interest: I would of course like to mine GLTR by supplying liquidity and extracting GHST by selling mined GLTR before each raffle - easy life and good money, BUT I can’t vote for something I don’t believe in as the best solution for Gothiverse.
As I see it, the primary goal here is to incentivize players to provide liquidity to the new GLTR rewards pools (future GAX!) above and beyond the GLTR rewards that are already offered, and discourage providing liquidity on the legacy FRENS rewards pools.
The FRENS system seems to have been quite successful in doing what it was designed to do for the protocol - which is to provide the necessary liquidity for GHST. In the spirit of “if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it”, why not just migrate FRENS rewards to the new pools and keep the FRENS system intact? So players would earn both GLTR and FRENS?
With regard to players taking losses on buying tickets on the bazaar in anticipation of a raffle, I do not see this as a systemic economic issue that we need to correct- the market is already sorting it out by pricing that risk into the value of tickets on the bazaar. The same game plays out with all types of assets in life- everyone is trying to predict the future (corporate earnings, interest rates, commodity prices) and they plan their investment strategy accordingly. (I say this as somebody who has been DCA’ing into drop tickets since they were 6 GHST, and was well aware of the risks of doing so)
This helped remind me that we’re/we were building liquidity for a specific reason… Maybe we could cut through this FRENS/ticket issue pretty quick if we had a nice list of core values and intentions to reference
Drop tix floor is 2.4 rn, I’m trying hard not to buy more
We clearly need core values, because there are clearly competing ideas about what we are doing here. At least 10% of us need to be given the option to move along, based on what we decide our core values are. There are factions on the edges whos views are 100% incompatible with the opposite edge, and either this is an AFK yield or its an engagement reward game. Bots and automation vs community building…
And yeah… I’d wait till drop tickets get below 1 ghst, and I would never DCA them again unless the auction is that week, and bitcoin not in retrograde.
I’m voting no on this - not because I’m against the general principle of moving the incentive to LP to the new GLTR liquidity pools - but because I feel this requires more discussion to get the implementation details right.
Specifically, if tickets are denominated in GLTR, we need to know how they will be priced. This does have potential to disrupt the value of GLTR for its original use case, which is to speed up installations, if it is not carefully balanced.
Personally, I’d rather we keep FRENS and just put the FRENS rewards on the GLTR pools (on top of the GLTR rewards).
I am in favor of sunsetting FRENS rewards and moving to LP rewards in GLTR only.
I also like the idea of “Crafting Tickets” with alchemica. I think we should include GLTR in those recipes. If there was a time element to crafting tickets, then those who craft their tickets in advance would have no need to use GLTR to speed this up. However, those who wait would need to spend GLTR to speed up the crafting so they could have their tickets in time for the raffle.
If we craft tickets, then I think we should also be able to burn/destroy them in much the same way we do installations, you would get 50% of the alchemica recipe back if burned.
Current bazaar prices are pretty depressed and I don’t think they represent the historical or future value very well. I based the recipes on the following prices.
Tickets
GHST
Common
0.1
Uncomon
0.5
Rare
1
Legendary
2.5
Mythical
10
Godlike
50
I started by trying to align the target price of 0.1 GHST per Common ticket with its Fud equivalent at current market price. From there I stuck with the FUD equivalent when creating recipes (Common=20, Uncommon=100, Rare = 200, Legendary = 1000, Mythical=4000, Godlike=20000) and tried to align the required Kek, Alpha, Fomo, & Fud totals to their Fud equivalent.
This seems to work for Common, Uncommon, & Rare. Using this same technique the prices get a little inflated for Legendary, Mythical, & Godlike. It appears they are all off by about 2.5x
Tickets
Kek
Alpha
Fomo
Fud
GHST Equiv.
Common
0
0
0
20
0.1
Uncomon
0
0
25
50
0.55
Rare
0
0
50
100
1.4
Legendary
50
125
0
0
6.22
Mythical
200
500
0
0
24.88
Godlike
1,000
2,500
0
0
124.4
To bring the recipes more inline with the target prices established above, I reduced the recipes for Legendary, Mythical, & Godlike by 2.5x
Tickets
Kek
Alpha
Fomo
Fud
GHST Equiv.
Common
0
0
0
20
0.1
Uncomon
0
0
25
50
0.55
Rare
0
0
50
100
1.4
Legendary
20
50
0
0
2.49
Mythical
80
200
0
0
9.95
Godlike
400
1,000
0
0
49.75
With these recipes, assuming 50,000 GLTR = 1 GHST I added in an equal GLTR cost to what it costs in Alch to craft
Please double check the cost of Legendary, Mythical, Godlike tickets. Your 2.5x reduction is not shown.
That said, great work! Thanks for taking the time to find a solid recipe.
GLTR has been mentioned before to be used to unlock tiers for ticket amount caps (by @HARDKOR?) For example, tier 1 allows wallet to mint 10 tickets, tier 2 allows for 20 more… the idea being that there’s something to limit crafting huge amounts of tickets.
I think it would be a good idea to use GLTR to impose a limit on crafting tickets, though waiting for tickets to craft seems arduous… it makes sense for haarvesters–I’m waiting to start harvesting/need to weigh gain of harvesting sooner against cost of GLTR–but these tickets are just going straight to a raffle or into my pocket
Rancho’s recipes are great as they are, but if the goal is to push people to engage with the game in order to get tickets, should each ticket need all types of Alch for crafting?
That wasn’t me, I just have a nerd boner for the the idea. I believe that was ChiChi
If you guys really want to go hard on making this awesome instead just doing the basic boring idea I proposed because I believed people had no appetite for creative solutions… PLEASE, LETS GET FANCY!
There’s a lot going on here to think about, if you are trying to price things in GLTR or ALCH.
FRENS was super easy, because it was 1 per ghst, with a boost that wasn’t really a boost, on the LPs, because you generally got smoked on the IL in those if you put big money in and the transaction fees, if it is smol money.
Tying tickets to volatile and inflationary assets, is a completely different animal, and that’s why I was suggesting the the Dev team simply monitor the situation, and do a crossfade over from one to the other, at the moment that 1 FRENS is about equivalent to 1,10,or 100 GLTR.
Now, Dan has already said he wants to keep tickets, because they have the contract, so in that vein, you are probably asking to much, for there to be recipes and a complex mechanism, but… maybe? It’s gotta be so cool that it makes it worth it…
What would make it worth it? What could be worth taking time away from other things we need done and even adding one more day of delay to the project?
I have some ideas, but I want to see what people think is worth it, before I put any more brain power into it, because I’m tired of solving problems people don’t want fixed
