That being said, what are your thoughts on having a 4~5 harvester to reservoir ratio? Something simple as this would help incentivize building beyond the bare basics also helping to somewhat stem the spamming of lvl 1 harvesters without changing them to leak alchemica continuously.
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The L1 spamming issue is not just aesthetic. If users are not incentivized to level up, the utility of GLTR and maker installations are greatly diminished. GLTR utility is closely tied to healthy economics of the gotchiverse since it provides a reason to hold and LP alchemica.
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I agree with you that there should be a strong use case for both GLTR and the maaker installations. Players should at least be motivated to upgrade not saying everyone will power lvl to lvl 5, but feeling the need to upgrade should be the goal. The easiest and simplest way would to just add a ratio of harvesters to reservoirs. At a 4 to 1 ratio a spacious owner would need ~32 reservoirs and at a 5 to 1 would need ~26 reservoirs so now IF they wanted to spam lv 1 harvesters it would be very cost ineffective without the need to adjust any harvesting rates or possible increasement of spillage. So now instead of having 4~5 lvl 4 reservoirs, you now need at least 26 or 32 built and leveled to at least lvl 3 to support the same amount of harvesters. Now the parcel owner needs to factor the cost of first the 21 or 27 additional reservoirs and secondly the cost to lvl all of them to at least lvl 3. Realistically now the cost of upgrading is less than that of spamming lvl harvesters.
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I agree that limiting the harvester / reservoir ratio, along with some of the other solutions posed, is a potential solution that merits further consideration.
Ultimately, I do not believe we should proceed with any change without a complete mathematical model of how it will impact various play styles. It’s very difficult to compare any of these mechanics adjustments without having the math in front of us.
I also agree that any major changes should only come after we have real-time data to base the changes on. We do not know for certain all the different playing styles that may appear once this portion of game play is released. I am just proposing that a simple harvester to reservoir ratio at this point would be the best, non-disruptive way to go given that this portion is set to go live so soon. Once the game has been live for a couple of weeks, we could then use that real time data to adjust extraction amounts, which installations need spillage and other things if there still is a need to do this because in reality its still an Alpha launch.
Just to clarify, I am not suggesting we wait for harvesters to go live to make changes. Just that we should be sure and have a mathematical model with some reasonable assumptions to present to the community before any change is vote upon.
That’s not said in response to any particular change that has been suggested - I think there are tons of great ideas here that I believe will model well.
ok just to clarify, I just said that i agree with you that we need to have real data to to make changes that would require a major reworking of the game’s mechanics. Now if only models are good enough for you, that is your choice. We are making assumptions with nothing telling us that there is truly any problems or a need to address them.
If you guys can show me where the game is being continually misused, i would be one of the first ones yelling “let’s fix this now.” heck i would even write the sigprop myself if you needed me to, but if we did decide to rework the game’s mechanics beforehand, what is our measure of success? 1 owner getting his/her installation to lvl 9 in 60 days or perhaps 15 owners by the end of the year? My point is that we may have a vast majority of players that never intended to even lvl to 9 any installation other than their altar and we would be making far reaching changes for little reasoning to do so.
So… as it stands, it appears we are no further along than at end of last meeting… I’m sure it will come up in discussion, but maybe let this one cook another week before we bring it back?
I’m asking because we’re making up the schedule now 
Good news fren. There has been tremendous work done in the background. The DAO meeting should be very productive with lots of forward progress.
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Could we see some of what has been done in the background before Sunday? We could possible address any questions and/or concerns beforehand and would be further along in the process by Sunday making the meeting more streamlined.
Absolutely. It isn’t ready to be shown yet but that’s what I’ll be working on all day tomorrow and have it be presentation ready.
Here is part of the introduction so you have an understanding what I am putting together:
It is my intention with Phase One to look at the gameplay from a more holistic standpoint. We won’t be diving deep into numbers here but rather analysing the different components of gameplay. From here, we will build a logical flow of game progression. Once we have an understanding of how the game should flow, we can work to make the numbers match our expectations.
Phase One Intention
• Cover relevant gameplay mechanics and how they can be manipulated
• Introduce a few new levers we can look at to bring into reality
• Build a logical flow of game progression from the perspective of three different player archetypes
• Understand how humble, reasonable, and spacious parcels are built-out based on installation cost against their individual supply of alchemica
• In words, build a few ideal gameplay models to ship to Phase Two which is all about bringing the numbers into the models
If we’re successful, the game path to progression will be non-linear and filled with difficult choices. The opportunity costs for immediate ROI ought to be attractive enough to deter players from racing to the end and dumping ASAP.
We’ll be covering:
Gameplay Mechanics:
Diminishing Returns vs Increasing Rate of Yield
Maakers
Spillover Mechanics
Build Time of Installations
GLTR
Other considerations
The Farmer Archetypes:
The Humble Farmer
The Empire Buildoor
The Degen Speculatoor
Putting Everything Together:
Setting a Framework for Installation Costs
Looking at Parcel Costs Holistically
Ideal Game Models
That’s all for now I’ll share the whole document as soon as it’s ready. Have an enjoyable evening
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Thx and you have a good one also plus i cannot wait to see what you have come up with 
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Sweet! I was worried we wouldn’t have new ground to cover, but the blog post gave us hard data to work with on the spillage, so… L9 and wearables is focus for the meeting
Hi frens and happy Saturday. I am pleased to present to you Phase One of the Gotchiverse Economics Modeling and Forecasting. It’s a long read and I hope you enjoy it. I am sure it will bring up a lot of discussion which I am looking very much forward to.
What is Gotchiverse Economics Modeling and Forecasting?
This project was created by myself and @MikeyJay in order to better understand how the costs of the installations play out in the gotchiverse. Phase One looks at things conceptually and holistically, before adding in the numbers.
Phase Two, headed up by MikeyJay, is actual numbers and simulations.
Phase Three is bringing everything together in easy-to-digest format.
Please find the document here:
It is rather late here so I don’t have the time to translate it into post format. I assure you it’s a clean file
In the morning, for the dubious, I will break everything apart here for easy safu reading.
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Just to follow up with a bit more detail on phase 2 of the project @notorious_BTC and I are working on:
We are in the process of creating a simulation, in code, of the gotchiverse harvesting mechanics as they stand currently, along with the ability to experiment with changing all of the crafting rules and recipes. The simulation can then be played by simple “bots” that follow rules on how they build out their parcels. The results of these simulations can be exported for analysis and charting - allowing us to present hard numbers on how certain play styles will impact player performance as well as token inflation.
With this simulation, we’ll be able to compare the current harvesting mechanics with the various proposed changes outlined by Notorious and others in this thread.
The outputs of the simulations, as well as the code behind it, will be shared with the DAO so that all constituents can make their own informed judgment about which, if any, mechanics changes to implement to harvesting.
We expect to be able to share more about the results of the simulation within the coming week.
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I do not know how this will effect your modelling but a humble can only have a total of 4 harvesters per the Gotchi bible. So it would only be a 1 to 1 ratio if collecting all 4 types of alchemica. LOL definitely enjoyed the read (your writing style is the best) and i cannot wait to see what you guys have instore for us. Also, if its not too much trouble, could you do a model with a harvester to reservoir of 5 to 1? I do realize this is kind of a selfish ask
Thank you for your kind words and for highlighting this. I suppose this needs to be addressed as well. Humble parcels are already crippled due to aaltar price restrictions. It doesn’t make much sense to me that a humble has a supply 1/20th of a spacious but only has 1/32 the build capacity.
Was there any justification given for these caps? (Other than inflation)
I see another detail in Ch4 I missed. You can only empty reservoirs once per 8 hr on a parcel. So the lower lvl limit on reservoirs needs to be >8 hrs.
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What I’ve come to realise through the exploration is this key point:
The true game balance is pitting rate of extraction against total resources. When I look at building on my parcel, I see it as borrowing against itself. The total borrow should never exceed 100% otherwise I’m net negative.
So to find the balance we must look at the player who wants the fastest extraction (they believe alchemica is most expensive in the beginning) vs the player who wants the most extraction.
The fastest extractor has to be viable to build and be different than the max extractor.
That means a fully built L8-9 spacious parcel shouldn’t cost more than 100% of the parcels total resources. The player is gunning to extract the difference in cost and resource as quickly as possible.
On the other side, the max extractor is looking to capture the most resource and doesn’t care about speed. So his build should be cheaper and not maxed out.
If both extremes are viable, then everyone’s play style somewhere in the middle can be achieved.
This is the kind of chart I see. I’m not so good with making the charts, I just pulled this image. So You’ll have to use your imagination on the values along the axes.
The y axis is rate of extraction and the x axis is total yield. Different curves are based on the adjustments to build costs and rate of yields.
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I drew up a better visualisation for what I am talking about. If balance is achieved in that the Degen fast builder only extracts a small amount of surplus yield from his sunk costs, then inflation takes care of itself in a way.
these numbers are in no way accurate. it’s more to illustrate what I am talking about.
In theory, the absolute max upgraded land would be prohibitively expensive in that the yield is so low or even negative that it is not viable. On the other extreme, to simply build one L1 harvester is also not desirable in that the total time of extraction is simply way too long to be viable.
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Not a problem . This is the main reason i did not want the amount of extraction or other game mechanics to drastically change and to my knowledge no other reason was given. I do understand why you would want to stop lvl 1 harvester spamming but with the current parcel caps in place humble would not use this technique and reasonable land owners might rarely use it. IMO anything other than maybe decreasing the cost to lvl and/or instituting a harvester to reservoir ratio (lol yep still suggesting it) would negatively affect the game as a whole being that possible lvl 1 harvester spamming would only affect a smaller portion of parcel owners.
From my interpretation of why its once every 8 hours, its more about the whole games impact on the Polygon network than the lvl of your reservoir. If we allowed everyone to claim based on its lvl, we would end up with another “sunflower” incident of our own creation so i for one support it. A lvl reservoir can only hold the mining of a lvl 1 harvester at current extraction at most they are getting ~5 FUD each time, so the play should be more on the lines of how much can i claim every 8 hrs not how much it can hold.
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