If that is the only fee then it will most likely end up as a pay 2 win game.
But I do agree that would be the ideal scenario over a mandatory fee … just like most mobile game that is free to play and has a cash shop
I think new player can also rent instead of own…so the upfront cost isn’t actually as high as we might think
I think it is very likely the scenario in which one would be willing to pay for “exit fee” to claim the prize is when the prize is actually worth more than the exit fee
This again, goes back to the issue people wants to play a game where they always “win”
This was the actual plausible use case of rentals in the beginning and was presented as counterpoint to the argument that gotchis cost too much.
I haven’t dove too deeply into the economics but that could certainly be possible. One possibility would be a free play which does not return any rewards. I’m not a huge fan of unlimited free play, however.
Ideally we want a game that generates revenue for the DAO. Players would be able to leverage the rental system and scholars would again be back on the table. With the rental system in place, a top scholar would be able to rent a gotchi and play the game for a chance to win. A game where only the best win will attract real gamers.
As mentioned by @reset we currently have no income generating systems in place. There comes a point where projects and concepts need to turn into income-generating businesses. Giving away free NFTs in the game is not a great path forward as it would ultimately lead to asset devaluation.
My plan is to capture the revenue from the game and convert that GHST into assets which are then broken down to be found in the game. The profits don’t necessarily need to outstrip the initial costs to be a success. If the game is fun and brings in a ton of new users who then invest into the ecosystem, I see that as a big win.
I’ve given some thought to this already and there are different paths forward. We can either accumulate the GHST rewards for the DAO or we can use the profits to burn surplus alch, gltr, and alloy etc.
Ultimately the objective is to create a fun experience. The game should be fun and addicting and worth playing. We need to shift out of the play to earn mindset where we’re all winners (at the expense of asset holders) and more into a mindset of we’re paying to play a fun game where we have a chance to win real money in the process.
2 Likes
I’m so glad to see there’s quite a bit of interest in this project. Here is a little background of the lore…
Aavegotchi Crawler Lore
Many millions of blocks ago, before any of us were summoned into this plane, a vast cavern was discovered deep in the Daark Forest. A small team of pioneering gotchis ventured into its depths and discovered enormous alchemica and geode deposits! It didn’t take long for word to get out. Soon after, the area became a thriving mining town inhabited by many adventurous gotchis hoping to strike it rich.
The deeper they dug, they more alchemica they found. Life was good as the money poured in. However, as they burrowed further into the verse’s core, strange things began happening. Some of the miners went missing. Others became hostile and filled with rage. The once peaceful and prosperous town was descending into darkness.
Some gotchis began having visions of a dark force corrupting the hearts of their loved ones, driving them insane. This darkness came from the depths of the mines.
Despite the dark omens, the greed of the gotchis prevailed and they kept tunnelling and tunnelling. Things went from bad to worse when suddenly the mine was closed and the town abandoned. There’s very little record as to what happened. (players can find journal notes scattered throughout the crawler to complete the story)
Nobody knows the real reason behind its closure and all that’s left are the rumours and legends. Some claim a major mine shaft collapsed, trapping dozens of workers inside. Others say a mysterious dark energy was discovered deep within the mine’s core and in attempt to stop the corruption, the mine was sealed and abandoned.
Today, there’s been signs of activity emerging from within this harrowing place. The sealed portal has again been opened and from it a mysterious corruption spreads! We must enlist our bravest souls to descend into the abyss and stop this creep at all costs.
3 Likes
I just want to echo this. The money printer has to turn off eventually
1 Like
Well there are 2 options if there’s an entry fee.
-
People earn more than the entry fee when playing this game.
-
They play a superior web2 version of the game.
I don’t see why people would play the game if it A) costs them money to buy a gotchi. B) costs them more to play the game than they make from it. C) has competition in web2 that’s probably better and cheaper.
We need to set up competitions and pay out earnings to players based on what the game generates. Sure, maybe not everyone will make more, but some people will. The idea of having an entry fee to any game after already having bought the assets makes me want to docLeave.
Revenue should be generated by offering optional boosts while playing the game. It shouldn’t be a requirement just to play.
I think the answer is risk for reward. Entry fees to skill based events/ tourneys where competitive players have a chance to win more than they put in.
The difference between web2 and web3 is transfer of value. its hard for a pve game to harness all web3 has to offer because its to easy to make a spreadsheet to see if its worth playing or not. If poker was something you could calculate then noone would play
Agree, at some point the ‘protect our bags’ mindset has to change. I feel like we might have a very defensive mindset, which I think hurts us… not sure if other projects have the same. I think it might be related to the ‘safety’ of the curve.
Make something cool that has the chance to get 100X more players in the ecosystem, even if it risks dilution in the short term.
2 Likes
Aavegotchi is unique in that it’s a MMORPG… Hopefully players can choose to be safe and just farm or (hopefully) take on additional risk in the Aarena. I really hope PVP has entry risk, where players can rise or fall based on their own merits and be rewarded accordingly. But this is off topic…
I think any Web3 game, whether or not its a gotchi game, needs to leverage the risk for reward playstyle for it to be successful because, as Xeko pointed out, if players really wanted a premium gaming experience they could just go play COD or something. (sorry for the run on sentence)
1 Like
I appreciate the feedback. It doesn’t have to be this binary, though.
This is how I see the gameplay loop going:
Players descend as far and fast as they can. They gather treasure along the way. Every ten floors they have the chance to portal out and capture their gains. Let’s say at floor sixty they break even or are in small profits. They now have the choice to capture a small win or risk descending further, trying to get to floor 70 (where the next portal is).
The only way to capture any rewards at all is to make it to the portal. This creates a lot of intense decision making and gameplay.
Now, the rewards get much better as you descend lower. And maybe, just maybe, you’ll be lucky enough to uncover a godlike core fragment. That fragment alone could be worth several hundred GHST, making all of your gameplay investment paid off x10.
This, to me, is what GameFi should feel like. We know we’re in a financial market with real money. We have to spend some of that money to play. There’s a chance of success and epic reward. But there’s also a chance to lose and not earn anything.
We just cannot have economic loops where everyone wins. Eventually the spring from which the money flows will run out.
I honestly believe that if we onboard a game studio to develop our plans we will have a fun game that isn’t just about making money.
Roguelikes aren’t for everyone but those who enjoy them really enjoy them. They’re meant to be challenging. They’re meant to have that addicting nature where when you get rekt, you’re eager to jump in and play again.
All of this being said, I believe it’s more important at this stage to focus on the game itself. If we like the concept, let’s build on it and pull in a data guru and economist later on. I would hate to bury the idea in a sea of back and forth over an issue which will be refined and resolved later down the line.
5 Likes
I think that was what Rarity Farming suppose to do
I think this game should be treated seperately
I agree, back and forth over the minutae is just going to burn time. I don’t care about art style or whether its a roguelike or a racing game. My criteria for anything funded by the DAO is this -
- It must provide benefit to the greater aavegotchi ecosystem in excess of what we fund
- It must leverage aavegotchi assets and tokens
- It should be inherently unfriendly to bots
- I shouldn’t be able to fire up excel and calculate an ROI.
The last point is what worries me most about this concept. Every Web3 game out there that has a calculable ROI has gone straight into the ground - Axie, Alien Worlds, Crabada etc… The thing they have in common is - there is no skill/ transfer of value involved.
If I can calculate an expected ROI based on the NFTs I have then it’s no longer a game, it becomes the most inefficient LP of all time. My accountant sure would be happier if I LP instead of game in Web3.
When the proposal comes up you will have my vote if it matches those four points!
2 Likes
Excellent criteria fren! I agree on all fronts. Let me release a little bit more of the design I have in mind to address each one. Bear in mind this is still the rough concept stage so numbers are ideas are likely to dramatically change in the final product.
This is the primary objective. The goal is to create a game which generates revenue as well as brings traction to the project. The revenue mechanism is through the pay-to-descend mechanic in whatever final form that takes as well as the in-game currency.
In-game currency
Corrupted GHST (working title) is the currency which allows players to buy goods from the merchant floors (every 10 floors with portals). cGHST can be purchased at a rate of 100:1 GHST before entering the dungeon. There is a maximum limit to the amount you can begin with to prevent cheesing and people buying their way to the bottom.
cGHST is also found in chests, barrels, ore etc. so players can also accumulate this resource without spending real $$$.
cGHST is not a new token and has no convertible value.
Absolutely! A bit more on how I see things taking shape:
Tokens and Assets
Players transact in GHST. With the Curve being removed, adding utility to our native GHST is essential. They pay to descend in GHST and also to buy cGHST.
GLTR + alch: these cheap resources will be purchased with the revenue and dropped throughout the dungeon as rewards. We have an option to add a burn mechanic wherein every 1 GHST of GLTR/alch purchased, we burn 10% or so.
Alloy and essence: these semi-valuable resources would be dropped in hardcore mode on the lower floors.
Core Fragments: a yet to be developed asset is as it sounds: fragments of cores. We’d need a bit of calculation here, but something like 10-50 of these can be found and fused at the Forge to make a complete Core. Cores can be purchased on secondary by the game as well as released once we have more players and demand.
Stat distribution meta: The current gameplay meta transitions near-perfectly into this concept. The only difference is we wouldn’t have HP regen so would have to tweak SPK.
Preserving the Gotchi Meta
BRS gotchis: In the initial concept, I have simplified things and am using BRS as base HP. The actual HP amount is not necessarily going to be linearly related to BRS.
Wearables: I believe the meta of all the wearable classifications is a bit unwieldy, and so would want to focus on balance. Weapons and their rarity tiers are going to be important. There’s a lot more room for design and expansion here. Armour and other slots are open for design. Perhaps pets can also provide some shielding/auxiliary attack.
Weapon style: I would look to simplify weapons into melee and ranged. Different melee weapons have different arcs of attack and different ranged weapons have different ranges and area of effect. ie: a pitchfork is a stabbing attack and a katana is a wide arc. A fireball is close range high area of attack and a laser gun is high range precision.
Weapon power: Striking balance between commons and godlikes is indeed going to be tricky. I am opening the discussion with attack power like this:
Unarmed: 1
Common: 2
Uncommon: 3
Rare: 5
Legendary: 8
Mythical: 12
Godlike: 16
This is a must. One of the design elements is I want to incorporate is a meta progression. This meta progression is linked to your wallet. This is best in my opinion for a few reasons:
• It allows scholars and non-gotchi owners to progress in the game, despite not having a dedicated gotch.
• It prevents botting. Like any good roguelike, players who fire up the game with no meta points invested are going to find themselves a quick defeat. This means the EV is going to be negative for fresh wallets. This makes it easier to monitor wallets which are progressing and winning a lot. Wallets which bot will be banned, resulting in a total loss of progress.
100% wouldn’t be able to do this. The objective is to build an actual game. Each run would be inherently different. Even a full GL gotchi with bad RNG can get rekt. Likewise, a humble commoner could have incredible luck and have a profitable playthrough.
There isn’t supposed to be an inflection point in your playing where you achieve a steady, calculable ROI. Think more like classic gaming. We’re here to game. Earning rewards and money is secondary.
This is how we achieve this:
Each Individual Run
Each playthrough is randomised RNG of the floors, drops, and merchant availability. Sometimes you are going to get rekt. Other times you are going to get lucky. Classic roguelike stuff.
Aspects: these power-ups are found in an individual run and, depending on which combinations are found, can make or break you.
Ethereal wearables: either found in chests or sold by merchants, these ethereal wearables are identical to our classic ones and can be equipped for your run and increase your chance of success. Sometimes you may get compatible wearables for your gotchi, other times not. After the run, they are lost.
Meta Progression
Hades does a fantastic job of meta progression and one thing they did which I love is the mirror. Essentially, you collect resource which can be spent into points at the mirror. Each ability has an either/or component, meaning you can only choose one. This idea goes very nicely with aavegotchi’s trait distribution system.
I’ll share just two of my many ideas here:
Treasure hunter: increased %%% to find treasure
-or-
Portal seeker: increased %%% to find stairs or floor portals
Frenly Merchant: purchase items at XX% discount
-or-
Compatible Merchant: the ethereal wearables for sale have X% better chance to match your gotchi’s stats
The goal is for the meta progression to tip the scales in your favour.
Top-Level Progression
It goes without saying, but the top-level progression is accumulating resources to upgrade your character’s wearables or replacing your gotchi with a more powerful one.
A Skill-Based Game
Ultimately, this concept is about skill, gear, and RNG. Gone are the days of play-to-earn where people can just casually grind their way to profits. No offence, but we are not here to attract extractors and support living wages for developing nations. Instead, we should be gunning for players who if are skilled enough, can win and make money.
I’ve already spent dozens of hours researching the top performing roguelikes and dungeon crawlers and what made them successful. I’ll leave you with one thing that really stood out for me which I believe we should keep at the forefront of our design.
The creators of Diablo 2 (arguably the greatest crawler of all time) said that when they conceptualised D2 they wanted the game to be understood and playable within the first thirty seconds of picking it up. Not only that, but you should be able to play it with one hand.
The aavegotchi dungeon crawler is just that: rent/buy a gotchi, descend into the corrupted mines as far and fast as you can. Kill enemies and gather treasure along the way. If you want to capture your gains, portal out. Rinse and repeat.
xx
1 Like
what about paying to play in GLTR instead of GHST. still gives GHST utility as its the main avenue for GLTR. I think that giving GHST a use case of being spent is overall a minus for its ability to grow in value. whereas GLTR has the tokenomic burn which it derives its value from long term. This seems more organic of a UX to me. Get your gotchi and your ghst, stake your GHST to earn GLTR to enhance gameplay.
also i think that its essential that this game has two modes, a paid version where real value loot is available from revenue generation and a free to play mode where you can still play for fun but without any funds at risk. to accomadate all of our different kinds of players.
a lot of people in web3 gaming and gaming in general don’t want to pay per play of anything.
1 Like
Hey fren thanks for sharing your perspective!
After hearing feedback from others and you, I think you are right! There ought to be a free-to-play version. One mechanic that could be really fun to get people into the paid runs is if the potential loot still drops in the free play version, only you can’t keep it. That way people are like “awww man, if this was hardcore mode, I would have made XXX.”
On GLTR: that could work, too. The design is totally open for discussion and ultimately will take shape in what best serves the community.
On this, what would you believe to be the best economic model or have you seen other projects doing good things economically?
Legacy games charge subscriptions or upfront fees or sell in-game power-ups and skins. Crypto games have an added hurdle as one of their main functions is delivering monetary value back to the player. In other words, there’s an increase need for revenue for a sustainable game.
1 Like
Or in the free-to-play version, they can only bring back one item or a similar cap that is very limited
1 Like
Just some armchair questions I came up with in regards to all dao funded projects
- Who owns DAO funded projects? Do we have the necessary paperwork in place to legally form an operating agreement?
- Will the DAO earn revenue from this game or will we rely on asset appreciation because the game ties up liquidity?
- Funding… I assume funding would be granted then released based on milestones accomplished. If there are delays will the team be able to spot the funds until the next unlock or will the project halt?
1 Like
Great questions! Let me answer to the best of my ability.
I can’t speak for all projects and initiatives, but the way I see things is if it’s DAO-funded, it’s DAO owned. Personally, I am here to build by the DAO, for the DAO. re: Legal framework, perhaps @stedari could shed some light on developments in this arena
I’m not sure I understand the second part of the question, but I think you are asking will the DAO generate revenue from this game? The answer to that is, I sure hope so! The final game is going to be a balancing act of difficulty and rewards.
Too difficult with too little reward = bad player experience.
Too easy with too many rewards = negative cash flow.
Ideally, this is what we achieve:
Descend entry fee + in-game currency sales - maintenance fees - costs of rewards > 0
Will the project recoup 100% of the initial costs? That to me depends on the success of the game as well as the broader aavegotchi ecosystem itself. The crypto gaming community is hungry for a fun game. Roguelikes are very popular. In my opinion, it’s a winning combination.
The goal (subject to change at community’s will) is to create a great game that is self-sustaining and draws lots of users into the ecosystem. More users = more asset + token appreciation.
We’d be working with a third party game studio. They are going to be working on the set budget and timeline. From what I’ve seen, most studios want 50% up front with the remainder at certain development achievements.
I believe things would continue as they have been. A multi-sig holds the funds and releases as necessary. Re: delays and things…sometimes delays are inevitable. I believe open communication and transparency throughout the process would ensure a successful delivery.
1 Like