My concern about trait mappings and why it HAVE TO be changed

The core of what I see you expressing is that there are combinations of strengths that are inherently overpowered. Everyone would agree that you wouldn’t want a setup where some gotchis had high armor, high HP + regen, high speed, high damage, and high attack speed. right? That’s the most obvious, but what are the other “poisonous” combos?

Another way of saying that is that for any class we include in the game, we should be able to explain its weakness and how it will be defeated. We’re basically making an extremely complex version of rock paper scissors with these traits. Not all classes must be equally easy to play (esp. for noobs), but experienced players should be competitive with any and all of them.

I also agree that it’s better to change these fundamentals sooner than later. The more we wait the worse off we are.


Thank you for your answer which seems to me very relevant.
It’s not exactly that, but it’s close. The main problem is precisely the poisonous aspect of some combos. And theses combo are not about theirs basic characteristics but about theses combinations plus the fact that some gotchis will have to hit with a sword while others will be able to shoot at a distance out of danger. And this is a real weakness.

You are completely right about the rock, paper, scissors example. I should have mentioned this in my first post so people would understand. My proposal attempts to avoid this imbalance.

  • Having Armor + Melee Damage, your weakness is mostly to have to go melee to fight
  • Not Having Armor if Ranged Damage, your force is mostly to be able to fire bullets

About fighting one on one

As I am also a fan of 2D versus fighting games, I can also give you some comparison criteria that are not applicable to Aavegotchi but will demonstrate the issue for people who do not understand.

In theses games, fighters who have a lot of ranged attacks also have the weapons to prevent the opponent from getting too close. On the other hand, fighters who fight a lot of hand-to-hand usually do a lot of damage in return. The difference is often very high with 4 hits to kill against plenty for the ranged fighter.

This kind of game rarely contains defensive fighters who can take a lot of damage because you don’t want the fights to last too long but you get the idea.


Thanks a lot for the detailed analysis, I fully support your point of view. Chapter 2 has the status of “confirmed but not immutable”, so it is the best time to review potential conflicts and prevent game unbalances at the very core.

Some additional things that should also be taken into account are the current wearable traits and meta. For example, the new Plate Shield has AGG -5, it would be strange that such object increases ethereality (as suggested). On the other hand, we already seem to have some inconsistencies with the proposed trait mapping for some wearables. For example, the Spirit Sword from the same set also boosts negative aggression (AGG-3 and NRG+2), improving the armor level, while all other (apparent) hand weapons improve +AGG. It feels almost impossible to find a good solution to this problem without knowing more about Chapter 3 and wearable traits, but it is great to highlight the weakness of the current mapping model and keep the discussion going.


i think that its important to recognize that your tending to the assumption that making this game fun from a gotchi fight gotchi perspective. while ignoring that there can be different objectives. from farming, to gathering as much alch as possible safely in potentially dangerous zones.three things that matter most
diversity of possibility
fairness of outcome
access to opportunity (including upward mobility)

i guess it depends on how much these traits matter right.

what if for example aggression could .5x or 2x your melle dmg and your armor can either be .8x or 1.2x.

and your ranged dmg could be .75x or 1.25x while your attack speed could be likewise 1.25x or .75x

maybe your ranged attacks already hit slightly weaker than these melle ones. i think that whats most important is that a good user experience is viable from any gotchi no matter how much access to content they have. so if some gotchis can wreck other gotchis there should be enough other options for fun. i think if gotchis traits have a mid range variance of efficacy it would make the most sense. like its a personality but not a fate decider. 5-20% range in efficacy. then when compounded with potential wearable effects of similar ranges we would end up with a product that can remain available and rewarding to lots of different cash pile sizes.

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Glad we got some experienced people thinking about balancing the game. I do not know much about this aspect but I am glad people are putting time and effort into it. Hope we can get a fair and fun game together


I agree, and I’d also like to add that range weapons (up until the DeFi RPG stuff) all boosted AGG:
MK2 Grenade: +1 AGG
M67 Grenade: +2 AGG
Aagent pistol: +3 AGG
Fireball: +1 AGG
Energy gun: +3 AGG +2 NRG

If AGG translates into +Melee DMG -Defense, then a range weapon boosting AGG, is not just useless, but is actually hurting your stats.

How about:
+AGG → +Base DMG
+BRN → +Ranged DMG Boost
-BRN → +Melee DMG Boost



To be able to build up a traits system such as the one PC have presented to us in Chapter 2 is no small task. A huge congratulations to the team for giving our community such exciting mechanics to mull over and discuss! I have no doubt PC have spent far more time (and with far more game information) than us deliberating over these traits and greatly appreciate what they have presented.

Great analyses @Caacao and as you have pointed out it is very much worth discussing potential tweaks to the trait mappings prior to immutability to ensure our community has a game that we enjoy playing for the next 30 years. So far it appears you have split the correlation between “Health Regen Speed” and “Ethereality” for SPK. I highly support this as these traits, although very different in mechanics, are both defensive traits. The potential trade-off between the two is not as consequential as it could be. E.g. it is less likely a player would be concerned where exactly they sit in the SPK range compared to NRG, AGG and BRN.

If we instead alter the mappings for AGG, SPK and BRN so that each contain an attacking trait vs. a defensive trait our spectrum of character play styles from Ultra Aggressive to Ultra Defensive is much further widened. This greatly increases the unique play styles available and means that players are more likely to intensively study and critique their chosen Aavegotchi to best decide how to utilise them in the verse.

In addition, the Gotchiverse’s best chance of success is to become a community and guild driven experience that focuses on good communication and strategic deployment of members throughout the verse. As we all know, this style of gameplay is what has made MMO’s so hugely immersive. The more play styles we can introduce for individual gotchis, the better the chances we have of driving communication and co-operation between players.

The Proposal

Below I have attached another potential trait mapping that I believe gets us a bit closer to aligning with current wearables and sets. Again, regen and ethereality have been split and are the key to creating more play styles.

These traits will lead to the following potential archetypes and you can see exactly which builds are the most aggressive/defensive.

I have also noted a few of the existing and rpg wearable sets that would correlate to these archetypes if implemented.

Important note: At this stage it is near impossible to perfectly match all sets and wearables to any given trait mapping. This is both evident in what I have attached above and in the current trait mappings proposed by PC in chapter 2. As a community we are going to have to accept that there will be some oddities between items and the traits they affect (e.g. bow’s reduce AGG which increases armor? But archers are usually light armored?). However. I have great faith that PC will be able to minimize these discrepancies in eventual roll-out due to the item specific mechanics they implement.

Trait Change Reasoning

Now for a brief description of the correlations I have suggested above and the reasoning behind each:

NRG = Carry Capacity vs. Movement Speed

AGG = Armor vs. Attack Speed
The main driver for this change was that a Citaadel Knight should still be strong! Physically, it makes sense that the more armor a character is wearing the less mobility they have which is why I have paired it with Attack Speed. Heavily armed knights favour slow swinging broadswords and this (arguably most classic) knight archetype is still possible with this change.

SPK = Ranged Damage vs. Ethereality
This change was largely driven by the need to split health regen from ethereality. Physically though, ranged weaponry and spells often lead to less evasive capabilities. e.g. a mage concentrates and stands still when casting a spell, a mortar team or archer stabilize themselves prior to firing.

BRN = Melee Damage vs. Health Regen Speed
Brain vs. Brawn is a classic trade-off throughout stories, film and video games. An Aavegotchi with a smol brain makes up for it with raw brute strength. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Aavegotchis with high brain power are more likely to be medically trained or have knowledge of healing spells.


Regardless of the trait mappings being modified or not I have great faith that PC and our community will build out a completely new and immersive experience with the Gotchiverse. These discussions are part of what already make Aavegotchi the gem it is! Where else could we as a community actually have as much impact on the final product as here?

Any and all constructive feedback is greatly appreciated. Let’s keep the discussions going :slight_smile:


Kudos to Caacao and many others that had excellent insights into the game play and very excited about some tweaks to be made based on these great analysis.

I do want to add (as I mentioned on Discord) that we would want to allow all ppls to at least modify the points spent one time after the traits are finalized (after PC either makes some changes or declines any modification). Whether further modifications are allowed or not is discussed in another forum post. But I really want that all ppls have the opportunity to adjust their spent points to align with their own goals based on traits mapping, which came out much later.


an unconventional idea would be to adjust old items to stat mods that make more sense.

Been following this thread closely and I love seeing all the creativity flowing from the community on these traits! Definitely keep it coming, as we have a little bit of time before we need to finally confirm them.

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Very cool stuff. I’m glad to see you are thinking about this so deeply!

I will admit that the introduction of a separation between Melee and Ranged Damage was done quite near to the end of our deadline, and although I do remember thinking there may be a slight imbalance with a tanky Ranger, we were under deadline to publish :slight_smile:

Now that the traits are publicly available, I’m all for proposing a Paatch to confirm traits that are even better balanced than the current ones, as long as there are no obvious downsides for other groups.


Thanks for the detailed analysis!

I’m not an expert in game balancing, but I feel that your proposal doesn’t correct the imbalance @Caacao talked about.

Your attack archetypes seem op with respect to the defense ones. Compare the Paladin with the Thief, for example. The Paladin has strong melee and range attack, AND strong armor. The thief, on the other hand, has no attack strengths. Yes, he’s very fast and great at dodging, and his health regenerates quickly, but not useful for anything else.

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Thanks for your encouragement @coderdan !
I am really grateful for everything you are trying to build and if I had only imagined one tenth of what you are announcing today, I would have already signed up 100 times. I didn’t think Aavegotchi would go this far but it’s also super exciting.

About what you are saying, on the contrary, I think that separating ranged and melee damage is a good way to prevent access to certain features without blocking them completely. In my proposal, there is nothing to prevent an Aavegotchi at range to focus on armor while doing less damage in return. My whole point is realy simple (even if it need a lot of explanation) : if you want to have high damage per second while being ranged, you can’t have armor. So the tanky ranger is impossible.

About proposing a Paatch, we should try to find some sort of consensus here. Then I will be happy to write the first proposition (the acceptance of such modification to traits) before a more precise Paatch proposition if you agree.


It would be even better if you could confirm if weapons are even a thing or just cosmetic. So far, it seems like my guys just shoot link and are just as happy with a cup of coffee as with a sword. Is armor actually armor or is this all just stat based.?

Hi and thank you for your long time trying to improve my proposal.

While I really appreciate the effort, I think like @MGG that your proposal doesn’t correct the imbalance problem I pointed. Not to mention that my last update changes only 3 traits instead of 4.

To better explain why armor is the real problem (and not ethereality), I would like to add a paragraph that will be important for the further reflections we have.

Why ARMOR and not Ethereality is the problem with ranged?
Armor should decrease the amount of damage you received when damaged. Unlike Ethereality who mitigate the damage by allowing you to completely ignore an attack that should have damaged you instead. So in armor there is no luck involved.

And that’s how we properly create a tank. huge HP or huge armor (or both). Dodging however is not reliable enough to be viable for a tank.

Now, suppose we add HP regen to this. Most of the time, you can approach hp regen in two ways. Based on HP percentage or fixed. If HP regen is fixed, everyone benefit from this equally but if it depends on max HP, having a lot of HP can become very valuable.

And that’s how a tank can become real in Aavegotchi. HP Regen with High HP let you regenerate hp faster and if you add armor to that, you can regenerate hp faster than a low damage attack, effectively tanking. With ethereality, if you doesn’t dodge enough of attacks, you can die as if you had no dodging at all. That’s why it is more often a trait for special classes like a ninja or a rogue (just examples).

That’s why being strong at range should not let you have high armor.

You will tell me that we could reduce the effect of armor and increase ethereality if it become an issue. It’s a very very risky assumption and let me explain why.
First, KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. When we are in the fundamentals of creating a game, we shouldn’t take these kinds of risks.
But the most important is that dodge can become a real and uncontrollable issue. In a lot of games, dodging is not a very important characteristic that can help sometimes but not save you from dying… until a certain point. When you dodge 10% of attacks, only luck can save you. When you start to dodge 90% of attacks, only luck can kill you. So dodging should never be high or follow a logarithmic curve that can’t go over a certain value (like, I don’t know 10%).


Yes. I agree with what you said about dodging. I remember this mage build I used in GW. She was an AoE glass cannon that used a blind signet that she could only use in contact with the foe. I could use it even without mana or under the influence of some spell-negating hex. It was hilarious using the signet on a tank warrior or assassin. They would be instantly blinded missing 90% of their attacks. They would just swing their weapon in front of me while I danced in front of them. Too funny.

A few thoughts I see with the overall setup:

I see it as there are critical stat mods and secondary ones.

Critical mods:
Attack speed
Ranged damage
Melee damage

Secondary mods:
Carry capacity
Movement speed
Health regen

As you said, dodge is an unreliable stat for tanking and more niche for rogues etc.
Health regen I don’t see being so important that it acts as a self-healing mechanism.
Move speed I don’t see so important that low NRG gotchis crawl and top ones fly
Carry capacity is irrelevant when talking about damage, tanking, etc.

The critical stats are self-explanatory to me. You have high armour, low damage for tanking. High damage, low armour for dps classes.

I believe melee and ranged damage could be combined into one stat mod that pairs against armor.

What we’re not seeing in here which I find odd is casting & healing. Without healing, there is no group play. And what is an RPG without casters?!

Before the launch of this chapter, I believed we’d see something like this:

low NRG = tanking, high armour, carry capacity
high NRG = movement speed, melee/ranged dps

low AGG - healing.
high AGG - damage & crit

SPK = couldn’t figure this one out. some kind of wildcard stat like dodge, crit chance, etc.

low BRN = melee & ranged crit
high BRN = spell damage & crit

When you look at what we have going on there are basically eight possible stat mods in four binary categories.

Another solution would be to let your gotchis spec into a class which would then route his or her stat points in a way that is coherent to the selected class. With the speccing, you could open up certain talents and abilities while closing others off, thus prevented any super op builds. Talent specs would also make it easier for game balance as you can tweak how specific stats affect that one class, rather than it affecting the entire system.


hey @Caacao thanks for the awesome post and all the effort for raising these points! As we are still trying to wrap our heads around the recent chapter, I think the points you are bringing are very much valid.

I think the last iteration of traits you have put out are quite balanced, there’s even some room to choose what style of range damage to play with by having a trade off between attack speed and regen i.e full glass cannon type of dps vs less squishy steady but slow range damage. I also like the fact that health regen and attack speed are in the different sides of same trait, which also provides for melee to have bruiser/assassin w/ high energy kind of play or full tank archetype combined with low energy.

More I read about it, it seems to make more sense. Forcing low armor for ranged attack and a naturally desirable dodging stat(low agg) being on the opposite side of melee, seems to fit very well in the rock-paper-scissor equation and in terms of lore.

Thanks again for the awesome post!

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Nice post, SlickBB. Well thought-through, articulate, and diplomatic. Interested to see more branching from this post.


Keep up the discussion, Caacao. There are a lot of good ideas people are proposing. See if you can help reach a consensus. I know you have your strong opinions, just try and keep an open mind at this stage… fostering community input and thinking will help us all move forward together. Great topic, thoughts, and enthusiasm!