My concern about trait mappings and why it HAVE TO be changed

The more I think about this last change proposal, the less I like it mainly due to the fact that now the Damage is only playable one way. And all Gotchis with low aggro will not be even playable for PvP. I guess the reason for not choosing + for melee and - for range (or vice versa) is because of the armor being tied with the same trait.

I think the fundamental issue here is that we did not have classes before hand and each trait for every gotchi has the max range to VRF’ed into. In traditional MMORG, you will pick a race to best fit your playing style/goals. Choosing a race is to choose the best traits combination for that intention. And each race’s traits have ranges or limitations. So from the start, you will not get into situation where you can not be both ranger + warrior or mage + warrior (for example).

It is a very delicate situation. So again, if there will be changes, I’d prefer the 2nd version in the original post as that’s the least “intrusive”. There might be more creative proposals. However, with possible max range for any trait, it is very challenging to solve it.

Edit

One way to solve the issue that max range being the same for any potential role to play in, we prob can define classes first. Then player will chose the class they want to designate their Gotchi to. And the “effective” of each trait will be different for each class. So 100 on Agg (assuming it still represents Melee Damage) for Warrior will be 100, but only effectively 55% powerful for a healer, and prob effectively 40% powerful for a wizard for example. So the power of each trait is a combination of numerical value and a modifier factor for each class. Since we use each trait for 2 effects, this effectiveness modification will be applied for low value as well, where 0 mean full power for one class, it will be less powerful for another class.
The original BRS calculation does not need to be changed and can still be translate into HP (or as a main factor into HP calculation).
Thoughts?

2nd Edit

In response to SlickBB’s comments below, I do agree in terms of archetypes and skills. However, it is not good for a trait to be of same effectiveness/power across all archetypes. What I was proposing is that Agg to be of different effectiveness if it maps to melee power. For Warrrior, it is 100% powerful, but for Mage, it is less than 50% powerful. However, I do see a problem even that.

Think about it more, we may need to (as SlickBB might have already lured towards) create a trait mapping for each archetype. Then players will have a choice of what archetype he/she wants to play for a particular gotchi. Then we compliment it with wearable as Skills. That sounds like we have lot more flexibilities and abilities to make them correct.

Edit 3

In response to Slick’s post: My concern about trait mappings and why it HAVE TO be changed - #47 by SlickBB below

I like it. Minimal impact on this change (in theory). And very reasonable. I was really liking the critical strike effect, but that can be achieved maybe by additional myth eye adjustments.

Regarding how applicable this proposal can apply, may also suggest that the range applies for AOE weapon or spell as well. Yet to find what magic spells we can have. I was fantasizing something like CC (using things such as puffy pillow - lol, guitar, etc), some boost (also using things such as guitar, or milk/milkshake, or liquior etc), there are lots of rooms for imagination. For weapon, the 2 grenages can be AOE weapon, etc.

One concern is that for low Agg gotchis, no one can play any offense.

Edit 4

One more thing to discuss.

How about change “Ranged Damage” to “Ranged Power” and swap attach speed with armor?

So if someone wants to have range DPS (high BRN), they will sacrifice on Armor. But melee can choose to have less range dps but have high armor. Attack speed affects melee damage. Higher speed, less damage for each blow and vice versa. And if you need higher speed, the Myth eye shape has some for that

Maybe still leave the actual range control to weapons (or hand items) and some skills you mentioned in the past. The Ranged Power would mean spell casting power for wizard/mage/healer, and mean range weapon damage for non-casters. I feel like if we have 2 slots that can be used for offensive, we will have more Gotchis can be effective in battle and not hurt too many ppls (as I believe mostly we want to join the fight).

The big challenge as all of us face right now trying to contribute is how we can allow most gotchis to be some what effective in whatever our overall plan is. This back fitting (somewhat similar to backward compatibility in software engineering) is hard and even harder than in software I think

2 Likes

In terms of class/archetype selection, I envision future players selecting a gotchi that fits a specific archetype rather than picking a gotchi and then assigning it one. When gotchi lending is live this is something that will be very easy to do via 3rd party Dapps. E.g. if you’d like a “mage” class gotchi, go to gotchirentals.com (for example) and filter for "mage"s. This will bring up all gotchis with traits that fit the mage archetype.

Now in terms of developing certain skills/abilities post-gotchi selection. We have wearables. All these wearables will have their own unique strengths/weaknesses/special abilities. If a player would like to specialise within their archetype into something a little different, they will pursue the accumulation of certain wearables and sets that grant the required abilities.

If it is acceptable to the group, I 'd like to propose we think in terms of two core systems:

  1. Archetypes - There are currently 16no. different combinations of these depending on trait distributions. These are the core specialities of each and every gotchi and what we are trying to determine via the trait mappings.
  2. Skills - These are the abilities that wearables will bring to your gotchi. As an example, we may have two gotchis that fit the “knight” archetype. However one gotchi is equipped with healing wearables and we now have an interesting sub-archetype within the knight archetype. Once wearable information is released we are going to have a lot of fun examining all the potential combinations we can make!
5 Likes

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Hold my cider frens, I’m going to mental model the shit out of this. User experience researcher reporting for duty.

BRB.

10 Likes

I agree with the original issue raised here.
I also like the original solution v2 (AGG for Melee vs Ethereality and BRN for Ranged vs Armor) even if it may needs a bit of tweaking
I think it’s better than having only one Damage trait on AGG vs Armor, because you go back to the same issue, it will prevent High melee damage to get armor.

Whatever the solution, almost all kind of games with a pvp mode (mmorps, arpg, moba whatever) are very sensitive to changes, meta oriented and require balance adjustment over and over.

Someone talked about KISS principles and I totally agree with him. We need to keep the character traits + items traits simple enough so newcomer can enjoy the game.

Class specialisation makes sense to me. It could be done in a way where all extreme stats benefit that class.
Sort of like in wow how you had a mage but then three types.
On the mage
High agg would be more of a crit mage. Low agg would boost aoe spells
High brain is more dmg low brain is larger mana pool

Something like that.

I don’t even know this is possible in the current design but to me makes a lot of sense.

Then we wouldn’t need sixteen classes as that’s quite unwieldy to launch with. We could instead have the classics. Mage rogue archer warrior healer.

I also prefer the second solution in the original post, I feel like it gives lots of interesting options for builds without making anything the clear best build. I think game-defined classes and speccing is out of scope for this discussion, and later on if people really want it we could still add it on top of the different trait mapping.

I’m really enjoying getting outside the box with everyone and looking at new traits that may also make sense such as the Critical Strike Chance and the combined Damage traits.

INTRODUCING THE “RANGE” TRAIT

Another potential trait substitution I would like to throw in the ring is Range. If we are to combine Melee Damage and Ranged Damage into a single Damage trait it makes a lot of sense to me to introduce a Range trait that really helps widen our playstyle spectrum AND still allows us to have a character with both Armor and Range that is not completely OP.

I have been thinking a lot about how the game designers might be implementing hand item wearable mechanics and (as complete speculation) could possibly see these mechanics as:

  • Projectile Foe
  • Melee Foe
  • Aura Foe
  • Aura Ally
  • Single Target Foe
  • Single Target Ally

HOW DOES THE RANGE TRAIT AFFECT HAND WEARABLES?

Now the interesting part is how does the Range mechanic affect each of the potential hand wearable mechanics? I have provided below examples of how they might work with Range.

WHAT ARCHETYPES DOES THIS LEAVE US WITH?

So we can take a pretty simple approach to changing the original trait mappings which actually looks quite reasonable with the new Damage and Range traits incorporated. Basically, swap Melee Damage with Damage and swap Ranged Damage with Range. This looks like:

We are now staying fairly close to the game designers original traits and have still managed to nerf the original Armor-Ranged Damage unit that was seen as OP and identified by @Caacao .

This will then give rise to the following potential archetypes. Note, as recommended by @notorious_BTC it is less confusing for a new user if there are fewer starting Archetypes so this time I have suggested only 8no. different archetypes. However, NRG dictates whether they are Greedy or Swift.

CONCLUSION

Finally a few pro’s and con’s on what I’ve outlined in this post.

Pro’s:

  • Armor-Ranged Damage unit is nerfed
  • Deviation from original dev trait mappings is not significant
  • Range gives a lot more variation to spells, projectiles and auras, variation is interesting and exciting!

Con’s:

  • Hand wearables may not play out how I have identified here
  • Implementing Range for each hand wearable may be slightly trickier than a flat Ranged Damage

Another lengthy post from me but this has been such an interesting topic to get into! Would love to get some feedback from @coderdan and @NyanKong to see if how I have imagined the hand wearable mechanics working is anywhere near what is planned?

Again, always appreciate everyones input :slight_smile: I think we’re getting close to one of the longest forum threads!

7 Likes

This is looking really nice! If range isn’t something accessible for melee, it could always be subbed with crit chance or dmg.

The classes all look solid too.

Just occurred to me that if the final BRS is health, that coming up with non meta builds will give more health, as you will be less common, right? Unique builds that make mediocre sense might be winners in this case.

Or, does that only count for traits and not wearable choices?

Hi everyone here is part one of a three part thing Im researching to understand what makes for good trait mapping and how we might design an awesome trait matrix for Aavegotchi.

Part 1 - What is the trait trinity and why is it good?

Executive summary

Goal: Analyse themes from popular video game traits to construct a mental model for trait mapping as a baseline for validating any design decisions within a proposed paatch.

Outcomes: Defined a trait trinity as being more than just a triad of player ability values but in fact a system of six trait polarities that are arranged into combinatory and opposing dynamics that achieve game balance and player experience of creativity.

What makes a trait trinity work is not only that there exists a sensible trade off of opportunity cost between select opposing traits (principle #2), but that complimentary traits are packaged up into Master traits that ensure the opportunity cost trade offs are equally balanced across the trait matrix (principle #3.) The integrity of a well functioning trait trinity is maintained by an unbroken unidirectional continuity of trade off between trait polarities (principle #1.) Breaking that continuity unbalances gameplay and destroys a player’s ability to experience creativity within their preferred play style.

Next steps: Model the proposed Aavegotchi trait mappings and hold that model against the discussed principles to evaluate how viable the proposed design is to achieving game balance and good player experience outcomes.

Introduction

I’m a user experience researcher from a financial services background and I nurse a hobbying passion for video game design: in particular the holy trinity, rock-paper-scissors, agility-strength-intelligence, damage-attack-support from much loved RPGs, MOBAs and MMOs. I wish to contribute to this conversation thematic analysis that might challenge our assumptions and arrive at design systems with better gameplay outcomes for players. My goal is to attempt to construct a mental model for trait mapping that might be useful to validate any design decisions within a proposed paatch.

Research goals

Im going to tackle this in three steps:

  • Part 1. (this report) What is the trait trinity and why is it good?
    Research a mental model that defines the design principles within the classic trait trinity: create a baseline for good trait mapping

  • Part 2. (a following report) How do the current state proposed Aavegotchi traits compare to the classic trinity design principles?
    Evaluate how the current state proposed Aavegotchi traits compare to the classic trinity: identify what (if any) problems currently exist in the proposed traits

  • Part 3. (if that then) Re-design the Aavegotchi trait map
    Design a future state model for Aavegotchi trait mapping: Identify what (if any) opportunities to improve gameplay outcomes might be possible to propose within a core prop

Method

Warning: Qualitative analysis is messy, always iterating and every model is wrong - but some are useful. Look at this research as a conversation you are welcome to participate in. I have used these types of activities to reduce risk in implementations from banking applications to child protection systems. I trust in this process to produce useful insights into user experience outcomes. DM me on Discord if you want to jump into the Miro board where this data lives and we can collaborate together.

Assumption: modeling the trait trinity may reveal not-easily-obvious insights that might help us validate the design of a future aavegtochi trait matrix.

Part 1: What is the trait trinity and why is it good?

A study by Lookinghandsome

Contents
1.1 Bunch of traits
1.2 Trait thematic analysis
1.3 Trait trinity model
1.4 Balancing a trinity
1.5 Primary Attributes
1.6 Class creation
1.7 Breaking the model
1.8 Conclusion
1.9 Design principles

1.1 Bunch of traits

Hey I know these

Let us not assume that any one person understands what the holy trinity is and how it works, let’s verify!

Start with a blank canvas. A triangle shaped canvas for obvious reasons. We can brain dump a bunch of traits down (I have pulled some but not all traits* mentioned in the DAO forum as a data source.)

Let’s define our terms as we go
Traits = attributed values that can be chosen by the player, usually at a trade off against other attribute values

*there are surely more traits and classes in gaming that are not included in this study but the point here is not to be complete but to have enough data to continue experimenting. Pareto rule.

1.2 Trait thematic analysis

Next we can group these traits into clusters of similar traits and identify any themes in the below synthesis diagram.

Black trait themes
When we collect like-traits together with other like-traits and arrange them into these trait towers the following six themes emerged from the below synthesis:

  • Inflict damage
  • Attack speed
  • Attack range
  • Disrupt attack
  • Replace damage
  • Mitigate damage.

Red higher themes
At a higher order we can identify affinities within these trait themes and three higher themes also emerge from the synthesis:

  • Damage
  • Attack
  • Support

This step is subjective to the data and you might have your own view on how to arrange label these themes based on the traits you have experienced from your own gameplay. I would say that the themes are pretty subjective then, but the higher themes are pretty solid.

For example,
Q: ‘Support’ seems to be a dubious cluster of Damage mitigation and Attack disruption, couldn’t either of these also live under Attack or Damage?
A: Sure, and we could iterate upon the sense-making all the way to the Gotchiverse launch. Let’s move on for now with what we have here and we can always come back and amend things as the general discussion continues.

Synthesis diagram

1.3 A trinity model

Let’s try and reconstruct the trinity model using the outputs of the above thematic analysis. The point is not to say ‘this model is the holy trinity’ but to try at catch a trinity in the wild and make it hold still while we examine it.

How to read the below model

  • The six small trait themes can be arranged along either end of a side of the triangle.
    Notice how each of the six small trait themes are pair to reflect one side of a polarity of the higher order trait?
  • The three higher order themes can be placed in the vertices of the triangle.
    Notice how each higher order theme represents a continuity of the shared ability value?

A trinity model

Principle #1
Trait trinities are actually trait six-shooters or trait half-dozens: Each of the three higher traits in the trinity are composed of a pair of bipolar abilities for a total of six traits.

Binary traits = trait pairs that describe two polarities of the same higher ability.

  • Disrupt attack and Mitigate damage are two sides of the Support dynamic: one defers enemy attack away from the player and/or team while the other absorbs extra damage to the player and/or on behalf of the team.
  • Attack speed and Attack range are two sides of the Attack dynamic that defines the ability pace the frequency of attack or lengthen the range of attack.
  • Inflict damage and Replace damage are two sides of the damage dynamic that defines the attrition of incurred damage against regenerated damage.

1.4 Balancing a trinity

Now we have somewhat of a model representation of a trait trinity. We know that ‘the map is not the territory’ but let’s see what we can learn about the relationships between traits in trinities such as this one.

How to read the below model
The way to read the below model is to follow each trait theme around the triangle to its opposite side trait and ask: does a trade off between these opposing trait themes make sense to maintain gameplay balance?


As experienced gamers we all intuitively understand that the trait trinity is a triangle of offsets. Now we can visualise how balance is achieved through the unidirectional continuity of opportunity costs between six opposing traits, not simply three.

Principle #2 - Balancing a trinity requires opposing trait opportunity costs
Each selected increase in one trait polarity must be balanced by an opportunity cost in two opposing trait polarities.

MOAR - you can skip this italicised text as it is redundant to the above model (incase the notes within the model are not easily readable)

As a player you get to choose which traits to increase, usually at a trade off against other attribute values: one point (+1) increase in one trait is an opportunity cost against another trait/s. Opportunity cost could be represented as (+0) or a relative (-1) depending on how you look at it but for now, lets call opportunity cost, (-).

If a player might select to buff on trait them in our below trinity model then we would say each trait selection has one buff/cost/cost (+/-/-) effect.

Starting with the black triangle of offsets (+/-/-):
+Inflict damage
Increased ability to + Inflict (melee) damage is offset by a decreased ability to - Range attack and - Mitigate damage
+Mitigate damage
Increased ability to absorb or Mitigate damage is offset by decreased ability to -Inflict melee damage and ranged attack.
+Ranged attack
Increased ability to +Ranged attack is offset by decreased ability to -Inflict melee damage and -Mitigate or absorb damage

And the white triangle of offsets
+Replace damage
Increased ability to +Replace damage is offset by decreased -Attack speed and ability to -Disrupt attack
+Disrupt attack
Increased ability to +Disrupt attack enemy is offset by decreased -Damage replacement and -Attack speed
+Attack speed
Increased +Attack speed is offset by decreased ability to -Disrupt attack and -Replace damage

But this principle is key: This is why the trinity is obvious to understand but not easyily obvious to explain or design. Looking at the below model it is not obvious that each higher trait theme is infact a binary pair of values with bipolar effects.

1.5 Primary Attributes

Jfc, where are you going with all this??

Hold on a minute fren, we need to talk about classes now because video gaming is meant to be fun and this is the fun part.

We’ll discuss an open class system because that is relevant to Aavegotchi. Players choose which Aavegotchi to own, which trait points to increase per level and which wearables to buff traits. That’s a relatively open class system compared to closed class selection games without leveling or items. We might say then that players will somewhat create their own classes while certainly gravitating to the easiest, most effective more most fun meta archetypes of classes. For example, if possible, a Ranged attack nuking pest that steals all the kills.

The below trait trinity dynamic defines a balanced environment of attribute trade offs where a player can be creative with selecting for their own custom and personally preferred play style: open class creation. But not without constraint. There are natural synergies between complimentary traits. Complimentary trait pairs share the same side of the triangle. Maximising for any axis of the triangle gives rise to acute competitive advantages. Each side at its maximum, affords distinct play styles that are defined by the player outcomes that are natural to the trait pair combinations (big black arrows represent an equivalent selected increase in complimentary trait pairs.)

Player experience outcomes

  • It makes sense to pair Inflict damage and Attack speed because either trait mutually reinforces the players ability to kill enemy players.
  • It makes sense to pair Replace damage and Mitigate damage because both traits mutually reinforce the player’s ability to survive enemy attack and maintain presence.
  • It makes sense to combine Ranged attack and Disrupt attack because these traits maximise a players ability to control the position and movement of enemy players in a fight.

This is why it is common to see these trait pairs combined into one Primary Attribute. Below is a common primary attribute trinity that we can examine through the lens of DoTA. Reference: DoTA Attributes @ Attributes - Dota 2 Wiki

Players can increase a one of three Primary Attributes (Strength, Agility or Intelligence) by leveling, item purchase or selecting special abilities.

In games that use this trinity:

  • An increase in the Agility master trait often correlates in an increased ability to +Inflict damage and +Attack speed
  • An increase in the Strength master trait often correlates in an increased ability to +Replace damage and +Mitigate damage
  • An increase in the Intelligence master trait often correlates in an increased ability to +Disrupt attack and +Ranged attack

Which finally leads us to,

1.6 Class creation

Wen classes? Needs more triangles

These Primary Attributes bind complimentary traits together to constrain the player into choosing opportunity costs that balance the trait matrix. The effect of this constraint is the bottom up emergence of the familiar play style archetypes we know and love: classes. Let’s use more triangles to examine how that works.

Who’s going tank?
In the example below a new black triangle explodes out of the Strength Primary Attribute side of our trinity model. The way to read this model is that black ‘Class’ triangle points out through the side of the Primary Attribute the player is allocating towards. The distance between the bottom corners of the triangle and the opposing traits represent the opportunity cost of not selecting for those traits instead. Things outside the triangle are stronk. Things inside the triangle are weak.

The placement of the below example triangle represents a player dumping his trait point selection 100% into Strength.This effects a binded increase in the both the traits +Replace damage and +Mitigate damage. This also effects an opportunity cost against the opposing traits -Ranged attack and -Attack speed. This doesn’t mean the player cannot have a slight ability to Inflict damage and Disrupt attack but neither of these traits can be strong.


See how the most reconisable classes (especially from DoTA) can be represented by maximum Primary Attribute allocations and incur opportunity costs in opposing traits.

There also exist interesting hybrid classes when a player selects for equal increases in two Primary Attributes. Notice how this dual Primary Attribute incurs an acute opportunity cost in the third and remaining Primary Attribute. The base of the triangle does not even enter that third and remaining Primary Attribute. These represent fun high risk play styles.

Seems you can go wild with the challenge of finding an axis for every class ever known. Where would a healer go? Where would a scout, ranger, warrior, sorcerer, knight, priest, warlock, barbarian, dualist, ninja, guardian, berserker or walking treasure chest go? This model is fun to play around with and see where the traingle corners land. Feel free to DM me for the Miro board and have a crack yourself, validate whether this is logically consistent with the traits and classes you enjoy playing.

For now lets stop and say,

Principle #2 Bind complimentary traits into Primary Attributes
Complimentary traits must be bound together within a Primary Attribute so that points can be attributed evenly across the matrix of trade offs.

1.7 Breaking the model

This all better have a point, Ive been reading this for about ten fuckin years now

Hold on a minute fren it’s nearly over and the point is to walk away confident in our understanding of what makes a trait matrix both balanced and enjoyable to play within. One way to understand things is to break them.

Below is a version of our trinity model that breaks from the opportunity cost ratio of trait allocation. This trait matrix allows a player to maximise two opposing traits: Inflict damage and Ranged attack (below in red font and dotted line). Maximising these opposing traits has come at an opportunity cost of low Replace damage, Mitigate damage and Disrupt attack but it hardly matters: the ability to maximise for the most aggressive traits makes the defensive traits obsolescent. This bad boy can ham out max damage at range before any defensive, supportive or even less aggressive players can get within its range.

The problem of broken, over powered play styles is not alone to ranged damage or even only aggressive traits. Consider the below example that models a break in the opportunity cost between opposing defensive traits; Replace damage and Disrupt attack. If such an opposing trait combination were permitted to be maximised - you would be able to play an immortal character who can continually disrupt attack, escape to fast heal and reinitiate the fight at will.


An annoying player impossible to kill at the least, or a constantly present threat upon you with stuns and slows at the worst.

1.8 Conclusion

Wrap it up please, ser.

Implications
The implications of this study come with two caveat assumptions.
The first assumption is a simple design decision: are you developing upon the rule of thumb ‘holy trinity’ rock-paper-scissors of damage-support-attack or are you doing something faancy.
The second assumption is about what gameplay style your player base values: to validate this would require user research with a sample of users (interviews, surveys ect.)

  • Assumption 1. The trait matrix in consideration for implementation to a video game is arranged in a three point trinity of attribute values.
  • Assumption 2. The most important factors to your player base in a trait matrix are that:
    a) trait dynamics are balanced for all player’s preferred play styles and
    b) trait dynamics afford players some creativity and freedom in realising their preferred play style.

Assuming we know both, then it follows that the below design principles must be adhered to when designing a trait matrix:

1.9 Design principles

Principle #1
Trait trinities are actually trait six-shooters or trait half-dozens: Each of the three higher traits in the trinity are composed of a pair of bipolar abilities for a total of six traits.

Principle #2
Every trait polarity in the trinity must have an opportunity cost trade off with two opposing trait polarities.

Principle #3
Complimentary traits must be bound together within a Primary Attribute so that points can be attributed evenly across the matrix of trade offs.

Next steps

Let’s model the proposed Aavegotchi traits and interrogate them against these design principles:

  • What is the shape of the trait matrix we’re looking at in Aavegotchi?
  • What are the apparent traits, ability directions and master traits and do they make sense?
  • What is the dynamic between opposing trait trade offs and can they be broken?

:tada: Congratulations to anyone who made it through this.

Keen to hear your thoughts as I embark on the next steps in Part 2: How do the current state proposed Aavegotchi traits compare to the classic trinity design principles.

I am happy to discuss this all further on a call as Im sure there are many leaps of logic that are not plainly written in the sequence of this report. The collaborative tool these models live in features a video call option - free and in browser - as easy as a zoom meeting.

13 Likes

Excellent article and insight @lookinghandsome !

My overall take on the systems you have identified is that strengthening 1no. trait should partially weaken 2no. other traits which is something we have not considered at all so far.

This is a very exciting read and if acceptable I would like to post a head start on part 2 on what I see the trinity triangle and trait allocations looking like for the current PC proposed trait mapping.

And our resultant trait mappings would now look like…

This is my interpretation of your article and to me this new system looks absolutely fantastic! With the traits mapped like this we now have a slightly more complex but, from what I can see, fair trait mapping system.

Let’s try build the op ranged unit with these new mappings as an example:

  1. Ok gimme 100 BRN for that sweet Ranged Damage at the expense of Attack Speed
  2. Now I want 0 SPK so my health regenerates near instantaneously, screw ethereality
  3. And finish it off with 0 AGG for ALL THE ARMOR (I don’t need melee, kek)

Great, now no one can mess with my ultimate ranged armor unit. Oh wait a second…

  1. Increasing my armor also reduced my ranged damage partially?
  2. And with full health regen I can’t attack as fast either,
  3. What the? All ranged damage has also reduced my armor partially?

The question with the trait mapping shown above now is what is actually the polar opposite of Ranged Damage? The holy trinity triangle would show Attack Speed and Ranged Damage as binary traits related to the higher trait Attack. Is it correct to offset Attack Speed and Ranged Damage on the BRN attribute?

3 Likes

Fren, this is a huge contribution to this discussion! Very elegant way of thinking about it. I’m blown away by the intelligence and effort demonstrated by you, Slick, and Caacao. Thank you. I’m already looking forward to part 2.

2 Likes

Introducing the Holy Trinity v2 Trait Mapping

Now, the previous holy trinity trait mapping I showed in my last post above showed what would happen when we closely followed the original PC mappings. If you look carefully though you can see certain unbalanced trait allocations. For example, maximum armor could be achieved but ranged damage was always nerfed!

This is because the left side of the mappings and the right side of the mappings need to each represent 1 of the inner triangles each. E.g. Ranged Attack - Inflict Damage - Mitigate Damage on one side of our trait distributions and Attack Speed - Replace Damage - Disrupt Attack on the other side.

I present below, the Holy Trinity Rev 2 Trait Mapping for Original PC Stats. You will now see that it is possible to get the max stat boost out of every single individual stat.

All we have done here is moved:

  • Melee Damage to 0 BRN
  • Health Regen Speed to 100 BRN
  • Attack Speed to 100 AGG
  • Ranged Damage to 0 SPK

Note that the applicable two inverse traits for each have still moved too to offset the singular traits as per our trinity triangles.

Now I might be crazy and overtired as it is now the middle of the night. But is it just me? Or is this the perfectly balanced holy trinity mapping we’ve been looking for?

Let’s take an example again:

  1. I want all out melee damage so I’ll go for 0 BRN,
  2. Need max attack speed so 100 AGG please!
  3. Let’s minimise my damage intake and go 100 SPK for ethereality

But wait!

  1. I have taken a massive hit to my armor as I’ve opted for 100 AGG
  2. I lose even moar armor because I’ve gone for 100 SPK!

We’ve effectively tried to get max DPS but now have the lowest possible armor! Hurrah! The OP armored damage dealing unit is no more!

2 Likes

Ok frens, I’m still awake and I’ve made the following spreadsheet available so you can play with the values for AGG, SPK and BRN for the Holy Trinity Rev 2 Trait Mapping for Original PC Stat trait map. Adjust the yellow cells and you can see examples of what impact core attribute changes have on each of the main game traits using the revised trait mapping system!

Feel free to plug in your own Gotchis AGG, SPK and BRN to see what they might look like :wink:

Enjoy!

4 Likes

Wow that excalated quickly, I love it! I don’t have time ATM to further investigate on all your analyses but will do as soon as possible. :+1: :+1:

2 Likes

Oh, it’s only for reading :frowning:

If you make a copy it should let you edit because you own the new file.

1 Like

Looking at one of my current gotchis who is all low stats, I see his stat boosts all become washed out.

His low AGG boosts armour at the expense of ranged damage + melee damage
His low SPK boosts ranged damage at the expense of melee damage + armour
His low BRN boosts melee damage at the expense of ranged damage + armour

So what is he actually boosting? It seems like every bonus is canceled double to the downside.

Another challenge I see with this current proposal is the separation of melee & ranged. Typically players choose one or the other. By having a gotchi that boosts both, it’s sort of gimped. So some stat combinations will be vastly superior to others.

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All good Caacao, thank you for inspiring the effort! This conversation is going in a good direction.
The intent is to compress this paper into a bite sized but powerful unit of design principles. (I re-read the paper upon waking and am wildly disappointed with the current fuzziness of some definitions)
By the end anyone should be able to glance at a summary of the final recommendations and in a minute or two be able to say, yep - makes sense.

I love your brain. This is the best post I’ve read yet. You are a true asset to the community ser.