Make Season 2 great for new players

I just asked myself why am I here, what I want from this project.
Some money…Great! A lot of money…Yes please, I really need it :):):slight_smile:
To be a part of a bigger story, a part of a great experiment … Priceless!

I would rather see us try and fail than not try at all.
We can not just hold our positions, we need to be open to be able to expand.
And expansion will bring big opportunities for everyone who is deeply involved and understand.

Let’s be realistic and ask ourselves to whom will we sell our beloved gotchis if there is only about 2000 players so far. There is not just rarity farming that will bring yield, there are other possibilities like lending, staking, LPs, maybe access to some parts of Realm with high XP and kinship only (let’s wait till Wednesday).

Won’t we have better options to expand in defi ecosystem if there is a lot of players.
And if we want new players to step in, we can not treat them as second, they will come and stay if they will see opportunity for themselves.

Btw, I love all of you who are more careful and fight for H1 players positions. You are very much needed here. I just expressed how I feel the story.

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Great point! That’s why beyond money… creating separation instead of union makes no sense for the overall shared story.
Fortunately we’ve heard dev confirmation now in Discord that these were simply comments and aren’t reflective of what may ultimately happen:

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I second this. Three leaderboards, plain and simple.

Just like other competitive pvp games, the rewards are based per season. The kinship and xp gained pre-season or from other seasons should be irrelevant.

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This so much, I feel exactly the same way. People don’t realize how fast growth (or the lack of it) can make or break a project. And no one makes progress and grows without some trial and error along the way. Nice post!

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Thanks for the detailed response, @JG1 and @kenymccornick. Maybe I should have started with this, but I’m speaking my opinion as someone who has done very well on the Kinship leaderboard almost completely by petting several gotchis consistently (I did buy 3 small Kinship Potions aftermarket, one for each of my top 3). So I’m with you in the knowledge that the Kinship leaderboard is not overrun by bots, and I’m also someone who would stand to benefit greatly from an unchanged Kinship leaderboard going into S2 farming. I wasn’t aware Kinship rewards had been cut (do we know by how much?), though I’m still pretty happy with the farming rewards I netted over the past two months.

I guess I consider it unacceptable to leave the Kinship leaderboard mechanics unchanged because the ethos behind Kinship is to reward engagement, and I consider it very important for that to be achievable for new players who buy into Haunt 2.

I also think that achievability needs to be immediately apparent to a new player, and my opinion is that the more complicated the process of “catching up” with kinship, the less apparent that achievability is to a new player. I feel less strongly about this point, but I’m someone who prefers simplicity, and Aavegotchi is already hella complicated, haha.

I understand that tracking Kinship from the start of a farming season is nerfing OGs on some level, especially if you take potions into account. But I don’t feel the need to consider potions too heavily because no matter how you handle it, someone is going to be “screwed,” whether it be the petters who couldn’t afford to pay for the advantage, or those who could pay and want to protect that investment. I commend the person who spent 13k (or whatever amount it was) on potions after S1 ended, but even if Kinship mechanics don’t change that’s a very bold strategy.

I guess the bottom line for me is that those who were willing to put in the time for petting up to now should be willing to do the same into the future for the potential upside in rarity farming. I know I will be. (hopefully no one thinks I’m talking about completely excluding H1 gotchis from competing, right? For the record, that seems insane to me, not sure whether that has been argued by anyone)

Now, I argue all this under the assumption that those with high all-time Kinship scores will enjoy significant benefits apart from season-specific rarity farming rewards. If those benefits turn out to be minimal, I’ll be disappointed, but I’m not sure whether my fundamental stance will have changed. I’m assigning a high value to creating a competitive environment for H2 players and H1 players alike. It’s a tough trade-off, and I understand the strong feelings.

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Yeah absolutely. Please don’t mistake our stance, we are with you in the search for a fair and engaging and sustainable outcome. However, once things got into the extreme side of nerfs and exclusion, a strong response was merited.

I want to share via screenshots to update you in what is basically common understanding and postponement of this issue until we see a lightpaper:

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The arguments you make for dual/reset of leaderboard to welcome new users are strong, but great arguments and comparisons against it (such as Actaeon’s above) are strong as well. I think the screenshots above reflect the best solution forward, which accommodates gamers, rankers, plankton. shrimp, whales, casuals all alike- in a single leaderboard!
I think this might be the simple and obvious way forward: Respect the current leaderboard, but, together with kinship spending options, and play-to-earn-kinship-potion options in place, it’s not a matter of who got what when, it’s simply a matter of personal choice, discipline, and strategy within a free open market- as it should be.

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Hmm, those seem like viable options to me, or at least solutions I wouldn’t be necessarily opposed to. I think I could get behind things like summoning bonuses and catch-up, and would be very interested to see how play-to-earn potions would work.

I’m okay with any scenario in which someone buying an H2 gotchi would have at least a theoretical chance of making it to the top-100 Kinship leaderboard if they were willing to put in the time to pet consistently and understand the mechanics (and if earning potions has to be part of that equation I think I’m fine with that too).

Thanks for sharing those ideas.

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Can’t figure out who to reply to, so just adding another general reply :sweat_smile:

The kinship “catch-up” mechanism sounds like a decent way to just maintain the current leaderboards. I like the simplicity of it. To me, simple is almost always better then complex.

The only issue I can see with it is that players that fall behind one season will have lower incentives to continue next season.

With the delta based kinship/xp leaderboard, everyone in the game starts as an equal for season start. This is more like fortnite. It doesn’t matter what happened in the past, each new round brings the possibility of victory. That’s why players keep coming back. Maybe they fall behind in one game, but the next game wipes the slate clean. So why not try again?

That’s the main reason why I’m still more in favor of the delta based boards. We now know that there is another use for kinship in the realm, so why not make the leaderboard more engagement focused? Don’t make new players play catch-up. Sure, the boost can at least start them in/near the rewards pool, but they are still starting from behind.

With delta based kinship and xp boards, everyone has the potential to do well EVERY season. I’m concerned that if someone falls behind one season, even with the “catch-up” mechanism, do we lose that player next season?

Summary:
Kinship “catch-up” solution may help solve the on-boarding problem.
Kinship delta leaderboard solution could help both on-boarding and retention.

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I think these are great, well thought out arguments!

I generally agree, except what you say regarding retention.
Yes, someone may be more inclined to return following season if there is a refresh and clean slate, however, core users could also be scared away or disengaged, as they don’t have a status or standing to maintain after a single season. Hard to predict if we lose or retain more users via leaderboard resets.

Successful MMOs and RPGs generally strike the right balance between not capping progress for hardcore users, while allowing new entrants into the game to have a chance.

Because of this, I favor “catch-up” mechanisms and dynamic kinship spending and generating options, over resets.

EDIT: Nobody has brought up the concept of “diminishing returns”. This is a staple in most MMORPGs. Basically, upon reaching a certain level, achieving the next one up is going to be so much harder. We already have this in place with the XP grind. We could look into a higher difficulty to raising kinship after let’s say, a 500 kinship score.

I second this. The delta boards, from my perspective, make the most sense. I think if we were to adopt some wicked seasonal wearables (see: Vanity Equipables and Seasonal Rewards - #5 by notorious_BTC)
Then the hardcore players wouldn’t mind a fresh slate each season as they reap rewards from each cycle.

I believe in the beginning three boards in total makes the most sense as there aren’t many players overall, but in the future we could see high xp boards, high kinship etc. For more competitive endgame enjoyment.

This conversation is a little disappointing… if you want to make the experience great for new users, all you have to do is ensure as many users as possible get 1 gotchi at a fair price and then let them start competing and earning just like everyone else. Giving a kinship bonus isn’t going to improve the gotchi experience if new users are forced to buy portals at 5 to 10x markup on the secondary market.

Separately, for those us who were not lucky enough to get a portal in Haaunt 1 and bought on the secondary market, the value of our investment will be undercut by this decision.

Lastly, I think people are undervaluing just being consistent and communicating the road map well in advance so user can plan and know what to expect 6 or 12 months down the road. I think there could be tremendous value in not changing rarity farming format at all.

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Here is precisely the problem. Right now, non-rankers and non-owners are seduced by the idea of a reset, or using delta-only. You are acknowledging that rewarding the highest xp and kin gotchies makes the most engaging and competitive sense, just not now but in the future (in your personal view).

The issue is that your “future” will be the “now” for those who aren’t leading in future seasons. It will always be tempting to change the rules around to knock off gotchies from the top-perch.

It is also tempting to believe we could do it just this once, but again, same arguments will be rehashed in the future.

We would have to decide now whether all-time or delta is what we want, but I have to agree with @Pebbles above, that reset/delta leaderboards weren’t precisely signaled when people were taking on the most risk- by being early buyers.

We are suggesting the very opposite of first-mover-advantage here, which is very antagonistic to the overall spirit of crypto.

Should we track buyers of the GHST pre-sale and say that because their GHST was 100X times cheaper, they have too much of an advantage and should therefore pay 100X more for their gotchies and wearables? If we are rewarding or punishing early investors and risk takers, it should extend across the board. I have argued this before, the concept that we can crash the value, efforts and successes of the earliest participants, is assigning all the risk and losses to a single one of our demographics (the first believers in the core product, the first consistent petters, etc), for the sake of pushing everyone else forward.

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I think you have to find the balance. Early adopters are going to have accept some level of dilution, but you do this hoping growth will more than offset. Also I view it as dilution, not punishment.

I personally think crypto rewards early adopters too heavily and hear this complaint frequently from people I’m trying to get interested in the space. If you have a situation where early adopters each have 100k ghst staked that they got for pennies, how will new users ever have a chance in a wearable raffle, and by extension a chance in Rarity Farming? By having too much concentrated in few hands you create a situation where the whole system, just accrues to the largest holders. Also it’s not like they took some huge risk, they just happen to hear about the project first.

What does everybody think of limiting the number of portals per address or purchase or similar system? I haven’t received much comment back, but honestly I think it’s the one of the most important changes that can be made. After hearing complaints of everything going on with Zed Run drops, making sure drops are fair and get wide distribution is one of the most important keys to success of these projects.

Kind of off-topic for this thread, but I’ll answer anyway. Without using something like BrightID (which has its own issues) it’s very difficult to limit purchases to “one per address”. What is an address? It’s just a wallet funded with GHST. It’s easy for a bot to spread GHST around to hundreds of wallets.

We’re using a new auction-based approach for H2 and the REALM parcels, called the GBM. Essentially it’s a fully-funded bid where you earn GHST for being outbid. Bots will still have a slight advantage in that they can bid faster than humans, but it’s not nearly as bad as how it is right now, with bots sweeping in to grab items before humans can.

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I hear you on the competitiveness of the boards. The challenge is as of right now, there is no possible way for anyone to ever catch the top kinship/xp gotchis. In most games, there is a level cap that people grind to and then begin the end game competition. That way, everyone at some point can catch up and participate.

We don’t have that. So without some change to either the kinship/xp mechanism or to go with delta boards, there really isn’t much of a competition at all. If there is a bot petting for kinship from day one then that gotchi will be unbeatable forever. Not really a competition or fair play.

I don’t really know how the kinship usage for harvesting mechanism is going to work yet, but to me it shows another reason why a delta board would be cool. People would choose which gotchi to not spend kinship on for that season, grind to the top, and then at the end of the season, they would spend all that kinship to harvest elements in the realm.

If we go the route of diminishing returns, I would suggest we tinker with the wording a bit. Back in the old days of WoW, they wanted to discourage people from playing all day every day, so they introduced an xp gain penalty if you were on for x amount of hours. People hated it. So what did they do? They introduced a rested bonus, where people who didn’t play got an xp bonus. It was actually the exact same numbers, just different words.

I think it would be far better to give boosted numbers and gains to new gotchis (from the current +1) at kinship 50 rather than slash gains after certain numbers. 50 kinship gotchis could gain 5 or so and it would trim all the way down to 1. That way nobody is “penalised.” To me that feels much more attractive than slimming down kinship gains to 0.25 etc. for those at a high rank. Same result, different energy towards it.

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It is true Haaunt 2 gotchis will struggle to compete with Haaunt 1 gotchis, but as we move past Season 2, those gotchis will have a similar advantage over Haaunt 3 and so on as we progress. As long as this system is applied consistently, I think people will plan accordingly. Changing things up too drastically season to season, is what is makes it difficult to stay in a project long term.

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I haven’t been able to read through the entire thread, so bear with me if this has been suggested before.

I would introduce a fourth leaderboard for SNZ2. This leaderboard should be entirely play2earn.
I am thinking of daily challenges, minigame scores, community engagement, content creation, maybe one or the other contest e.g. for the best looking Gotchi and so on.
Also for this leaderboard players with multiple high BRS, Kinship, XP would have an advantage (e.g. in minigames) but it should be designed in a way that a really hard working/competing spirit with one mediocre Gotchi could possibly earn the top spot.
Maybe have an allocation of 60/20/10/10 % each for the four leaderboards (just an example).

For the existing 3 leaderboards, I think things should stay as they are, but for XP and Kinship there should be like a multiplier for low kin/xp Gotchis in order for them to have a chance at reaching higher spots. I would also prefer this instead of nerving existing H1 Gotchis.

I think there at least should be a clear advantage for people how have been dedicated to petting their Gotchis as often as possible since the start. However, I would also not mind if this was just a slight advantage.

Longterm playability and attraction to newbies should definitely be the main focus in tailoring the rewards for future seasons.

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There are so many great ideas here, Aavegotchi has a very democratic community compared to other Dao projects. That being said I feel like we will need to draft some sort of Gotchi Charter of Rights and Freedoms;
“Thou shall not segregate thy Gotchi’s between Haunts” -This should be avoided at all costs.
Kinship
There is no need for Kinship summoning boosts if the whole Kinship dynamic is more
game-ified through a Kinship sink (Gotchus Alchemica channelling) and Boosts (potions) earned through “proof of play” such as high scores and top ranks in mini-games. Like someone mentioned earlier, these potions can be incredibly valuable to someone who needs to make some side income, or not valuable at all to a whale that wants to buy and chug 100 of them to get highest kinship(economically wont make sense). Choice is yours; and isn’t that what decentralization is all about? Autonomy and personal choices. People who want to earn additional GHST based on kinship during RF can pet religiously, not channel kin into their land, and put the time and effort to play minigames, get good at them, and earn kinship potions from ranking as high as they can on mini-game boards, earning potions. I imagine once the Realm comes out people will be channeling their kinship into their land like mad to get that sweet alchem to build things and alot of kinship concerns will fall to the wayside. I personally have a pristine Gotchi that will never give up an kin, and my “miner Gotchi’s” which accrue kin daily for future mining operations.

XP
10 years from now when H20 is being released XP will be a true indicator of an OG. How many tings did you vote for? How many times did you kill it in a mini-game? How many community calls and events were you a part of? During RF, I set time aside to accrue XP for all my Gotchis. Why? because you level up and make your Gotchi rarer Fren! This will be the real flex when “Heads Of State” get their ghosts. My XP will still be wayyyy higher. Does this make RF unfair? not at all. See next point.

Weakables/BRS/ARS
In a podcast Dan had briefly mentioned how RF could play out in the future. I believe this was either before or during RF SZ1 so maybe they’ve changed their line of thought. He said “your Aavegotchi could be really rare one week during RF and then not so rare the next week” i’m thinking this was in reference to ARS. It would make sense with ARS if you had a fairly common middle stat gotchi, and lets say there were only a dozen similar, though common, it would technically be rare based on its ARS. Now you combine that with those special wearable combo outfits like “Curve surfer” which was a legendary item combined with two commons to give a decent boost; now we’ve made things more competitive among everyone. Dumping a ton of GHST into items can still get you to the top, but its not necessary. A new player can summon an H2 Gotchi, be really active in the game, Earn some Kin potions in mini-games, buy a few from frens, do their research and see what Gotchi’s are out there (courtesy of Aavegotchi Stats) and summon the one that they think would be most competitive for RF (beforehand of course, I realize you need the Gotchi to play).

See-ing all the time and effort put into this one thread really shows all the dedication we’re putting into this game. I know everyone here including myself wants to be able to tell people they were there at the start when Aavegotchi becomes a household name. None of my opinions are meant with ill-intent towards other points people have brought up, and I welcome anyone to add/ challenge any of the points I made.

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Transferable Kinship Potions have already tainted a season. Don’t let it happen again. With three leaderboard you can have 3 different win mechanics. So why settle for just 2?

  • Rarity: Pay to win

  • Kinship: Play to win: Interactions + non-transferable Kinship Potions as minigame rewards

  • XP: Play to earn: transferable XP Potions as minigame rewards.

This way you can choose how you want to make gains:
Do you wanna farm for the whales?
Sell the transferable XP potions you won in your minigames on the market.
Do you wanna play to climb the leaderboard?
Great, just keep petting and use your non-transferable Kinship potions for boosts. Whales who don’t want to invest time, will not be able to buy their way in front of you (at least not once the rest of the transferable Kinship potions are gone or forever HODLed).
Do you wanna buy some godlike / legendary items and call it a day?
Awesome, go Rarity Leaderboard.

Everyone wins. Everyone’s’ interests are considered. Three different win mechanics.

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